To Rabbi Eisemann
Dear Rabbi Eisemann,
I want to sincerely thank you for trying to reach out to me at a difficult time. I have always had great respect for you.
I will not contact you directly for reasons I won’t go into but also because I much prefer that your advice should be for the many people in my situation (and, believe me, there are many) and not just me.
I understand that you would rather speak to me directly because you would like to establish a personal relationship and to understand what’s “really” bothering me. I’m familiar with this as I myself have been involved in kiruv.
Let me first tell you that I am not unhappy in general. I have a good family, baruch hashem, and until now have enjoyed learning and being in yeshiva. The problem is not something else. It is a problem of hashkafa exactly as I said it is.
Also you should know I’m not stam looking for reasons to do aveiros. This Shabbos, even though I consider myself not frum anymore, I was makpid in kala kechamura. I have no special taiva to stam be mechalel shabbos (even though I am full of anger). Unfortunately, at this point Shabbos has no meaning for me but old habits are hard to break (and also I didn’t discuss this yet with my wife).
Anyway, if you really want to help me, I’ll tell you how. The basic question that drives me crazy is this: does a frum Jew have to believe that everything chazal said, including science, is true? As long as I thought the answer is NO, my life was fine and my Yiddishkeit was 100%.
But now that Rav Eliashiv and Rav Moshe Shapiro and Rav Shternbuch and Rav Scheinberg and Rav Dovid Feinstein and Rav Feldman and many more said the answer is definitely YES, I have a big problem. Very big.
So please tell me:
Are these people Gedolim?
Did they say the answer is YES?
Are the gedolim the ones who decide what we have to believe?
I believe the answer to all three is YES, in which case my life as a frum yid is over. If the answer to any of these three questions is NO, I beg you to please SAY SO NOW BECAUSE IT IS A MATTER OF PIKUACH NEFESH AND NOT JUST FOR ME.
And one last thing: In case you want to speak privately in order to say that the answer to one of these is NO but you are afraid to say it in public, that is the worst of all possible answers. It would mean that you are a coward and that our velt is run by thugs. Please don’t say that if you want to help.
posted by Ben @ 10:00 PM
33 comments
33 Comments:
Just like the Gemara can be mistaken in science, those Gedolim can be mistaken in thinking that we have to accept their science. There is a Mesechte Horiyos that deals with mistakes of a Sanhedrin in Halachic matters & when they have to bring a korban. See Rambam Shegogos 14:2 that if they make a psak in Metzius it is not even a psak. Cosequently the Sanhedrin would not bring a korban, but rather those who followed them.
Similarly, this "psak" is not a psak because it goes against the metzius.
Why are you even taking it seriously?
I think that the answer to Eliyahu Zechariah's questions is just that the concept of "the Gedolim" is dead, not that Judaism is dead, ch"v.
I called Rabbi Eisemann yesterday, set up a meeting and had a nice time speaking to him. As I did not get explicit permission from him to post our conversation, I won't do so, but I strongly urge anyone who is troubled by this issue to call him up, set up a meeting and meet with him.
You might be pleasantly surprised by what he has to say.
I had never met Rabbi Eisemann in the past, and I was very impressed by his sincerity and truthfulness. I asked him how many people called him - and he told me that I was the only one. Don't be wimps - it's very easy to post on a blog anonymously, but far more productive to meet with Rabbi Eisemann and try to work out the issues.
Moshe in Jerusalem
(Yes, I am posting anonymously ;))
Damn it. With Judaism updating itself to such a degree that folk are seriously considering throwing away gadol worship and have already thrown away the belief that even chazal(!) are capable of errors I see my corner of the world getting crowded. Here I was all proud of myself for being an independant thinker who allows himself the right to think and say that 2 + 2 = 4 and now I see trhe chevra following right along. Fuck.
Reb Eliyahu Zecharia, ad meah v'esrim shanim,
You are trying earnestly and honestly to remain a shomer Torah, and that is splendid beyond words, but you must know that derech eretz kadmah l'Torah.
It is not inaccurate to describe this last post as 'manipulative.' You may have written it without any malice or premeditation at all, but it clearly attempts to put Rav Eisemann on the spot and force him to do something that he never offered.
Look at the trajectory of your posts: The first was a public letter to Rav Feldman, declaring that because of his article, you see that there are no 'normal' Gedolim who are willing to say that Chazal can be wrong on science. As a result, you felt compelled to renounce Yiddishkeit, with repercussions for spouse, family and friends. This was followed by a comment to another blog wherein you declared that you had eaten treif, [thereby making the break]. This was followed by a second post, more bitter than the first. Rav Eisemann saw the pain in your tortured soul and reached out across cyberspace, listing his name, position at Yeshivas Ner Yisroel, cellphone number, e-mail address and home phone, for want of a more private way to get in touch with you. That, you must know, is pretty uncommon in the blogosphere and represents a shining moment in this whole dismal affair.
But then in your third post, you insisted on nationalizing the issue. You would not allow him to try to provide balm for your wounds privately. He would have to put whatever he had on display before the Klieg lights of your blog. Not only that, but he would be forced to make a public pronouncement that would have direct bearing on the characters of other respected authorities of Klal Yisroel. That is simply not menschlich. And you have addressed this to someone whose entire oeuvre is underscored by civility. [For civility's sake also, I think, you should delete out the vulgarities in the comments of this "mnuez."]
Perhaps the antibiotic he has for you is harmful for someone else? We all have our idiosyncrasies and our allergic reactions. Perhaps you are a giant and need a stronger dosage, a dosage that might hurt a lesser person.
Perhaps it is still true, even in the age of AIM and blogs, that not everything you think should be said; not everything said should be written; and not everything written should be published. Perhaps discretion survives still.
Let us remember that you have not revealed your real name here. That much is clear from your statement that you have not yet discussed the matter with your wife. I am sure you are familiar with the principle of chavrecha chavra ees lei and thus it is fairly certain that you are blogging under a pseudonym. You have ventured nothing, except perhaps a cracker. He has bared his heart.
Please reciprocate his kindness.
Sandalfon,
Everything you said is completely true. Rav Eisemann was generous beyond words and I responded unkindly. I can't deny this.
But I am in a very bad spot and Rav Eisemann wants to help. So I told him honestly and truthfully how he can help.
Do you think I don't know that there are yechidei segulah with normal opinions? Of course I do. But so long as they are not willing to speak publicly, it is clear where klal yisrael is holding. When all the gedolim say one thing, that's yiddishkeit. Opinions that can't even be spoken in public count for nothing.
Please convey my apologies to Rav Eisemann. I greatly appreciate what he tried to do. It is truly not his fault that what he's willing to do isn't enough.
A heartfelt thank you for your response. Message conveyed. More anon.
Dear Eliyah Zecharia:
Your postiong caught me just as I was getting ready for my return trip to the States and I was therefore not able to write earlier
Dear Eliyah Zecharia:
Your postiong caught me just as I was getting ready for my return trip to the States and I was therefore not able to write earlier
The reason why I offered a face to face meeting rather than discussing the matter on your blog, is that, although my experience is limited, I find this venue very unsuited to Divrei Torah, particularly a DAVAR HA'OMED BERUMO SHEL OLAM as is the topic which we are discussing.
Our own exchange is a good example. I made a perfectly simple offer and all of a sudden find myself in a game of chicken in which the issue is whether or not I am a coward. That should not happen and does not lead to the kind of Derdh Eretz which aspiring Benei Torah should foster.
Again, your second posting was not framed in language which is appropriate to a Torah discussion. You allowed yourself to say things which you had no business to think, certainly not to express and most certainly not to express in public.
I am not going to expose Divrei Torah to such a forum. Ifthat is cowardice, so be it. There comes a time when ASHREI ADAM MEDACHED TAMID must be the rule of the day.
Neither you nor the people who use these blogs asked my advice, but allow me to suggest that you start using your real names. I suspect that the abuses which apparently occur would not take place if you identified yourse lf. I understand that anonymity can sometimes be useful, but it seems to me that it can very easily lead to a situation in which YATZAH SECHORO BEHEFSEIDO.
Needless to say, my offer stands and I would be delighted if you or anyone else who feels that he might benefit from a conversation, would get in touch with me.
I received an email from DBH in which he pointed out that the problem precipitated by this affair is much wider than I had expected. I answered him that while I recognize that bigger PIRSUM would certainly be helpful and is therefore called for, I cannot.given the reasons which I laid out for you, see how this might be done.
Best wihes in friedship.
Dear Rav Eisemann,
Thanks for your response.
My second post was written in great anger.
My apologies for the 'coward' remark. I'm aware that there are good reasons to find this forum less than perfect.
But still, those who wish to take a 'hard line' on chazal and science somehow manage to get the word out very well. It's on the internet, it's on the walls, it's in Yased and a dozen other newspapers. Those who possibly have a different view never manage to do more than be meramez. No public forum is ever quite right. Why do you think that is? Maybe because they know that that view isn't authentic. If they thought it was, they'd be as successful at being mefarsem as the other tzad.
Am I wrong?
"But still, those who wish to take a 'hard line' on chazal and science somehow manage to get the word out very well."
With the intense assistance of the askanim from the Dark Side - the low-level kannoiim who began this mess.
"It's on the internet,"
Mostly because of the blogs on the counter-attack.
"it's on the walls,"
True, but contrary to popular notion, the words of the prophets are NOT written on the subway walls, or any other walls [Belshazzar excepted].
"it's in Yased"
The Israeli/European edition only; not the American edition. Even Pravda Neeman seemed to recognize this distinction on related matters: http://chareidi.blogspot.com/2005/02/clarification.html
"and a dozen other newspapers."
Well, if we are talking about the same thing, many of those articles were not good for the "hard-liners."
"Those who possibly have a different view never manage to do more than be meramez. No public forum is ever quite right .... Am I wrong?"
You are wrong technically. R' Aryeh Carmell, R' Berel Wein, R' Zev Leff and R' Chaim Malinowitz have all made it clear where they stand and done so graciously. Here are the links, all taken from R' Slifkin's site:
http://zootorah.com/controversy/RavCarmell.pdf
http://zootorah.com/controversy/RabbiWein.pdf
http://zootorah.com/controversy/RavLeff.wma
http://zootorah.com/controversy/RavMalinowitz.jpg
I believe you are also wrong in substance: No normal person would feel inclined to join a debate where the two sides are already shrieking at each other, foaming at the mouth and using words as one would use weapons: to puncture and cut; to mutilate and maim; to kill.
On one side, we have those black souls who distributed pages of R' Slifkin's works to Gedolim with marginal comments such as, "rosha merusha," "poyer" and "sick man." On the other side stand fellows such as your "mnuez" with his expletives undeleted. Of this group, "Godol HaDor" is relatively speaking one of the good guys, yet he is nosei panim to no zaken, if the zaken is on the wrong side.
Who would want to jump into this writhing den of rattlesnakes? With few exceptions, none have.
At this point, perhaps the only way to make progress on this calmly, coolly and collectedly, is to speak with someone like Rabbi Eisemann, far from the madding crowds.
Why meet with R. Eisenmann?
His tone in his comments was condescending and assumed that he is to judge what is acceptable and not; what is correct tone and venue and what is not.
He tells others what to say and think!
Shame on him.
Part of the Sifkin affair is to see through the smoke and mirrors of the arrogance of the gedolim and their ignorance of anything outside of a simplistic reading of Torah.
To say that things are "rumo shel olam" is part of the smoke and mirror illusion that only gedolim understand. The Rabbi has to realize that he is paternalistic and should not ask to be simply trusted after having violated the trust.
And yes, from his comment- Rabbi Eisenmann is running scared because he knows that he does not have answers to intellectual questions. At best he has trust the gedolim that this matter is rumo shel olam Or he has the usual bad kiruv answers.
Moshe- of course he is sincere, but lacking in knowledge and understand of modern issues.
Yossi
I, for one, would be interested to see if Reb Eliyahu Zecharia is comfortable with the premises suggested by Yossi in the last post.
If not, I think it would be much more meaningful for EZR to explain where he differs, rather than having me attempt to do so.
anonymous Y:
You have just proven HaRav Eisemann's point. There is no possible justification for speaking of him as you do.
I am embarassed -- for you, and for the 'blogosphere'.
Keep up the good work » »
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Eliyahu Zecharia Rabinovich,
Why are you putting the decision on whether you remain frum in the hands of these mortal men albeit gedolim.
It is not in their hands. It is in your hands.
As it is said, The matter depends on me alone.
Be well, and make your own decisions.
A fellow frum freethinker
PART 1 OF 2
-----------
Most of his sinful life the mobster Yitzchok Feuereisen has been spying on innocent Jewish children fishing out for future blackmailing their and their families harmful personal information for the managing hucksters of Ner Israel Rabbinical College. Yet when I read this past February about a Jewish World Review reporter "Robert Feuereisen" who was detained by the Secret Service for climbing over the media cordon in a frantic attempt to get Obama's autograph I foolishly couldn't even dream up that he and Ner Israel scamp "Yitzchok Feuereisen" were one and the same. I kid you not: recently I had to be at Ner Israel once again and verified this thing!!!
All of us who were at Ner Israel in Baltimore in the 70s knew a sneaky sycophant Yitzchok (Yitzchak) Feuereisen: an "alter bocher" running a "shabbos table" for yeshiva kids. Of course with a "blessing" of the Ner management. Feuereisen then moved in with his spinster sister in NYC but was making a buck as a proprietor of a bus service to Baltimore where he spent weekends. On my visits to Ner Israel after I got married I again always saw that man and his giant "shabbos table" with dozens of high school kids sitting around it. Ner Israel management never raised a finger against this obvious intrusion into THEIR right to coach THEIR kids. Guess why.....
We then knew little of the cover-ups at Ner though we knew that some rebbeim and many guys at the office were not so ehrlich but that's a different story. There were sickening whispers that Feuereisen had orgies with the high school children (Yitzchok Feuereisen was a perpetual "alter bocher" who had his own room in the packed Ner Israel high school dorm where he lived for years up until he was in his 40s!) and we heard that he was in bed with the compulsive liar and pedophile rabbi Moshe Eisemann and also a secret spy of the Ner mesivta principal rabbi Joseph "Yossi" Tendler & Associates and other stuff, but at that time that was weird and unbelievable at least to me.
PART 2 OF 2
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Thereabout in the 90s the "alter bocher" Yitzchok Feuereisen at last married a shady Australian woman but continued (and continues now!) with his shabbos-spying&grooming-table: this time both at yeshiva and his newly built lavish mansion located one minute walking distance from the yeshiva dorm. This White House jumping incident first made me think what the hell else we could be expecting from a philanderer who was never able to hold his dick in his pants, who spied on kids wholly screwing their innocent lives and families with his falsified dossiers, who never kept shabbos while hiding behind his "shabbos table": to uncivilly chase after President Obama to fetch his autograph!
Yet I spoke about this stuff with my good buddy who has worked for the military for the past 20 years and knows Feuereisen too. This is what I heard: "Yitzchok (Feuereisen) has always been a bozo racist and sexist. Of course he came up to Mr. President whose skin color he absolutely loathes just because he wanted Obama to remember him and so have a trouble-free access to him or his team in the future. In matter of fact "journalism" is just a cover for Feuereisen: like the "vending machines" he has to let others see that his riches don't appear out of thin air. And yes he is spying: maybe for NIRC, maybe for some intelligence agency, or maybe even for himself: big-time trading of the White House insider secrets to the Mafia or fat cats of Big Business."
There is something spooky that for more than 10 years that Feuereisen was a JWR reporter at the White House (JWR editor is one more Ner affiliate Binyamin Jolkovsky) no pieces of writing came out in print under the name "Robert Feuereisen"!!! So what was he actually doing at the White House all that years, how did he even get into the White House??? For Feuereisen spying on powerless yeshiva kids was NOT enough, molesting kids at the dorm was NOT enough, covering up for super bastards was NOT enough: Ner Israel has to have their FBI man inside the White House!
NOBODY DARES TO SAY IT SO I WILL: IF YOU STILL HAVE A CHILD AT NER ISRAEL TELL HIM TO STAY AWAY FROM THE DANGEROUS PHONY RABBI YITZCHOK ROBERT FEUEREISEN AND HIS "FREE" COKE AND CAKE: UNLESS YOU WANT TO FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF WHAT IN REALITY THE WORD "FREE" MEANS AT NER ISRAEL!!!
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